Friday Feedback
June 24, 2016 by Mike Casazza
Welcome to the Friday Feedback, willing to do whatever it takes to help the team. Granted, the team may change, but the intent will not.
Let’s begin with David Sills the Fifth, who will enroll at El Camino College Monday. I’m pretty proud of the discussion we were able to have here. No one alleged Sills was “screwed,” but no one put this directly on Dana Holgorsen, either. His continued quest to recruit, sign and develop a blue chip quarterback prospect continues, but I really do think it continues irrespective of what Sills decided. It seems you all do, too.
No one’s turning on Sills here, but let’s be honest: He was a four- or five-star prospect after he committed to USC. His spot near the top of the 2015 recruiting rankings dropped through the years, and he wasn’t as celebrated or as coveted as he was before. There are different explanations, but they all seem to agree he either wasn’t as good as what was projected or he didn’t evolve as expected. Either way, there was only a loose consensus about him.
Rivals gave him four stars and ranked him 15th nationally among pro style quarterbacks. 247Sports chose three stars and No. 19 among pro style signal-callers. Scout went with three stars and No. 38 among all quarterbacks. ESPN settled on three stars and No. 26 among pocket passers.
Translation: Good prospect. Not a blue chip. Not a lock. Not the guy who should have been expected to validate Holgorsen’s reputation. It doesn’t help that this was a prospect with a lot of potential who got away without hardly any development at the position he was brought here to play, but this is seemingly more about a player who wants to be something he wasn’t going to be here.
Onto the Feedback. As always, comments appear as posted. In other words, lay low.
Mack said:
Currently on the WVU Sports Blog with Mike Casazza, there is a story about a magician that plays for the Philadelphia Eagles, but there is still no coverage of women’s flat-track roller derby. Explain it!
Can’t. Won’t.
hoot said:
I think back to when he made that three-quarter court shot to send the playoff game into overtime…not a single “look at me” gesture, he just turned and walked toward the bench. What a stark and welcome contrast to the present generation. Thank you 44!
Anecdote I heard years back: The NBA introduced the 3-point line 1979, and West was quick to realize the Lakers should have won Game 3 in 1970 and thus the series. Instead, New York won Game 3 in overtime and the series in seven games. That guy …
netbros said:
Man, he is aging well. 78 years old. Doesn’t look much over 60. Great genes.
It’s like he won’t let it happen.
hoot said:
netbros…you ain’t kiddin…check out this bit of magic ..
“…that’s horrible, and it still went in.”
Mack said:
If Gansey’s career ended after his junior year I would’ve thought he was one of the best players in WVU history… but he sure found a way to be non-existent in every big game his senior year.
Oh, my God.
Sid Brockman said:
Mack, non-existent? Here are Gansey’s stats in some of the bigger games that season:
11/21 – Texas: 28 pts, 4 rebs, 3 stl
11/22 – UK: 12 pts, 7 rebs
11/26 – LSU: 25 pts, 7 rebs, 2 stl, 3 blocks
1/8 – Nova: 21 pts, 4 rebs, 5 assists
1/14 – Marquette: 33 pts, 3 rebs, 3 assists
1/21 – UCLA: 24 pts, 3 rebs, 2 assists, 4 stl
2/18 – UConn: 25 pts
3/23 – Texas: 18 pts, 5 rebsGame logs from FoxSports (couldn’t find game logs that far back anywhere else quickly).
You can toggle his 2005 and 2006 seasons here.
The 25314 said:
Yeah, I’m not sure if Mack is trolling, but through the UCLA game in 2006, which was mid-January, Gansey was on the short list for national player of the year. Shooting over 50% from 3. He didn’t play as well to finish the year, but he was supposedly sick a that time and had lost a bunch of weight. His steal against UCLA, and his 3 with 18 seconds to go in the Kenton Paulino game were pretty clutch. Not to mention his play against Texas in the Thanksgiving tournament, and 25 points against #1 UConn. 2 double doubles against Georgetown. 21 points at #3 Villanova. 25 against Final Four bound LSU. 6-7 shooting against #7 Oklahoma.
Mack does not troll. If memory serves, Mike pulled an ab muscle late in the season. Remember, his stomach was unfortunate as it was. He has the worst food allergies, so he was routinely dealing with some type of an upset stomach, and he tried so hard and wanted it so badly for his team that he was almost always working with nerves and butterflies. Add a pain in the stomach and he wasn’t eating much. Also, Pitt always gave him problems, the Panthers were a superb defensive team, and they tried to take away Gansey every time they played.
pknocker40 said:
Wasn’t Gansey Ohio’s Mr. Basketball runner-up? Behind LeBron?
He was, and LeBron said, and I’m paraphrasing, the wrong guy won. It was at the root of their relationship.
ffedbboc said:
Wake Forest fans haunted by Pittsnogle and Mike ****ing Gansey much like we are haunted by 13-9 or Tremaine Mack.
http://www.ogboards.com/forums/showthread.php/16584-Screw-you-Mike-Gansey-and-Kevin-Pittsnogle
Eeeeh, probably not 13-9 bad.
Mack said:
My comment was aimed at the end of the season. It is purely from memory, but I am positive of it. If you go back to the Big East tournament games and the NCAA tournament games and watch them, Kevin Pittsnogle stepped up when it was needed and Gansey fell apart any time that things got tough. In some ways, I think Texas beat WVU in the NCAA tournament because Pittsnogle took an elbow which bloodied his nose (and required him to go to the bench for a possession or two late in the game) at a time when Pittsnogle was carrying the team. It got to the point where Pittsnogle just jammed some cotton in his nose, went out there, and immediately hit a three-pointer to tie the game with like five seconds left or something.
The Wake Forest game is on the short list for the best single performance that any player will play in my lifetime. Gansey was at the absolute top of his game for the Big East and NCAA tournament run his junior year.
His numbers were not great, but WVU thumped Southern Illinois and Northwestern State anyhow, and he didn’t go full-throttle. And he was really good against Texas. The Pittsnogle memory is right on, and that bloody 3 was fantastic.
CC Team said:
Snyder would be first in my book. No one does more with less. WV-K ST last year is a prime example.
I feel like Snyder is approaching a phase when he’s so underrated that he’s overrated. But I can’t deny him.
Sid Brockman said:
Lots to disagree with for me. Surprised at how far down the list Holliday is. I think he’s done a good job there. Also underrated (to me) are Solich, Hudspeth, Rhule, Les Miles and of course Snyder. Darrell Hazell, Leach, Franklin are all too high for my liking.
As an aside, LOL at Muschamp. Might be generous if we are judging his head coaching abilities only.
Wow. Random Muschamp shot. Estimable recruiter, ideal early resume and he’s in the SEC East. There’s a case to be made for guys being better in their second head coaching gig, and he’s in the division he spent three seasons in previously.
NotFooled said:
Assuming you used that photo because this is all Bull
Ah, but you are fooled. Photo is beacause Jordan is wearing No. 45, where Dana was ranked.
Oklahoma Mountaineer said:
I feel like that’s a pretty fair evaluation — all the guys above him have won….and won big either at the school they currently coach or at a lesser school. Strong has so many resources at his disposal that there’s no excuse not to win. I’m at loss how either side feels good about going into this season without an extension in place, but I’m not the coach or the AD, so they must know something I’m not thinking of……I hope
The case against Charlie Strong: Hasn’t done much without Ted Bridgewater. As for the WVU dynamic, I think Shane Lyons is content. He didn’t add to Holgorsen’s contract. If Holgorsen wins this season, Lyons isn’t obligated to extend it then. He can end it things a reasonably low cost, too. Holgorsen can’t feel great, though. Even if he wins, there’s no way to know if it’ll be enough to save his job or what it will take to extend the contract.
Down South said:
Dana is that picture where you can see two women. One is old and homely. The other is young and beautiful. Whichever one you see first, it is hard to see the other.
So Dana’s my wife and my mother-in-law?
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Bobby Heenan said:
I think Russell is firmly at 3. I think he could be better than Mahommes.
Baylor with Russell with a healthy C spine wins the national championship last year. That was Kenyon Martin broken leg levels of rise and fall.
I don’t disagree with the 2015 scenario. Just not sure what we get in 2016, though. A neck is a neck, and Baylor’s wobbly as heck.
Sid Brockman said:
1) Mayfield
2) Mahomes
3) Russell/Stidham
3b) Rudolph
5) Everyone else in some kind of order
Probably.
The 25314 said:
Yeah, but if we rank the QB’s in order of who can check into the right running play, Skyler is #1 in America.
Mr. America.
Mack said:
Going into the season, when one is trying to be optimistic, they point to Skyler Howard’s big numbers in the bowl game. So, I’m curious. Does anyone here think Skyler played particularly well in the bowl game?
I thought he was better than expected, but he was, for better or for worse, the product of the game. Arizona State blitzed a lit and had a bad secondary. That means deep throws against suspect cornerbacks. High risk, high reward there. He missed some big plays and made some big plays. He took a beating, even though he only got sacked once, but he persevered. The Sun Devils outnumbered WVU in the box, which means you’re going to throw it a lot, and he did a lot of good things and a few bad things with all those throws. (Source: The Good and the Bad of the Cactus Bowl.)
Mack said:
I thought Skyler’s improvement in the bowl game was commensurate with how poor the Arizona State defense was. Arizona State’s defense, to me, looked Geno-throwing-for-a-million-yards-and-touchdowns-against-Baylor bad.
WVU picked on the cornerbacks. Did not think they could hang all game, which was correct.
Loopy Hoopy said:
Agreed. Sklyer didn’t look like a world beater in bowl game. His receivers got him some good YAC to boost his stats. Also, remember the interception the ASU LB literally had then bobbled into the WVU WR hands inside the ASU 20. It took a 25+ yard run by Smallwood on 3rd and 24 (memory hazy, a lot of beers ago) for WVU to win that game at the end. Did SH play better than his Nov./Dec. games? Yes, but those were against tougher defenses. SH still needs to learn how to run zone read correctly, too.
But don’t forget, Mr. America made the read at the line on Smallwood’s run.
MontanaEer said:
On a side note, “The [SEC] didn’t win a game in Omaha. Neither did the ACC. Together, the two power conferences were picked on Memorial Day weekend to host 13 of 16 NCAA regionals and awarded 17 of 64 spots. That was probably a miscalculation by the selection committee. Meanwhile, what is West Virginia thinking? The Mountaineers finished fourth in the Big 12, with a winning league record, and played for the conference-tournament title, losing to TCU in 10 innings. They were not selected for the NCAA postseason.”
Eh, I’m going to be the bad guy here. The Big 12 was not this great in the regular season. WVU was the No. 4 RPI team … at No. 52. The other three were in the top 18. The Big 12 was No. 3 in conference RPI, but remember, it’s a nine-team league with one-third of the league in the top 18. It’s hard to do that, but it helps the league RPI when it happens. Covers for some ordinary or below-average teams. But the difference between the ACC and SEC is minimal. The difference between the ACC and Big 12 or the SEC and Big 12 is larger. The difference between RPI 1 and RPI 3 is about the same as the difference between RPI 3 and RPI 9. It’s a great story for the Big 12, though. Don’t get me wrong. I just don’t think it’s a reason to retroactively include WVU, which was 2-7 against the Big 12’s top three in the regular season and 10-4 against the bottom five.
Wayne said:
Somehow it seems appropriate that Dana’s fate would be determined by a transfer QB. His inability to recruit a good (or the right) QB out or high school is mystifying and one of his biggest failures. That said I think that Skyler can lead this team to a good (say 9 or 10 win) season if he stays healthy and the play calling keeps him out of plays that he can’t manage. He should never have had the option to run on that bum ankle at K-State. Also there are certain throws that are very difficult for him due to his lack of height and arm strength, those throws should not be an option for him to check into. We still need Gibby to develop a good defense but I think that the offense will due it’s part.
Acceptable conversation here and not related to Sills.
Down South said:
The “can’t develop a QB” refrain has dogged Dana. Someone tell me who the coaches are in college football with consistent success at finding and developing their own QB’s. Alabama has been a mixed bag. Auburn has been awful at it. Oregon has relied on transfers. I think this is more of a national phenomenon than a particular Dana shortcoming.
There’s just not a lot of them. You’ve got 128 schools. I’m saying at the top today Sills isn’t one of the keepers, and he was a top-40 QB. So let’s say half of the top 30 are keepers. That’s 20, which means a little more than 15 percent of all the schools get one a year. It’s easier if you sign one, but it’s also important that you get your hands on one somehow or another.
Bobby Heenan said:
There is national difficulty with developing a QB, but the track record from Dana/Leach said that they could take ~3 star guys and make them big time performers and put up numbers.
They took guys that were solid but not exactly can’t miss 5 stars and turned them into top 10 QB’s – guys like Case Keenum, Brandon Weedon, Graham Harrell et al. Heady, accurate signal callers.
There was a pattern there. It’s not that Dana is THAT much worse than anyone else in recruiting/developing QB’s, it’s just that fair or not, the expectations for QB performance given his past success and reputation as an offensive guru were high and he has failed to meet them.
In addition, there are some pretty big swing-and-misses from Dana in the realm of only taking 1 qb per class and it going poorly – Chavas Rawlins, Ford Childress, and possibly Crest.
Reminder: Dana didn’t recruit Keenum, Weeden and Geno. If you look at his best passers, they are juniors or seniors who had been in his system, either as a player or a protege, for a while. Howard is the longest-tenured quarterback he’s had here and since Keenum.
Dann White said:
Am I wrong or is the one qb per year thing now just a piece of history? Did not Sills and Chuganov arrive in the same class? Wouldn’t Cody Saunders and Will Grier (yes I know he’s a transfer) also be arrivals in the same calendar year? Not a challenge gentlemen, a question: Is the one qb per year thing, a thing of the past?
You are correct. Probably a flawed practice, or an exaggeration, all along.
ccteam said:
If I were Baylor’s attorney, I would say pound salt. The only thing that might change that recommendation would be a legit threat to kick Baylor out of the conference if it doesn’t produce the requested information.
I’m not sure the Big 12 has the constitution to do that and I’m not sure a postseason ban would work. However, if these schools vote in blocs, maybe Baylor can be persuaded to do something or lose its spot in the bloc.
Down South said:
Someone wake me up when Bowlsby requests the tape of Joe Mixon doing his best Larry Holmes impersonation.
Yeah, I’m not against this at all.
Mack said:
If you look at his height, weight, and 40 time, my guess is that he had zero chance at the NFL at wide receiver. Hell, he would (at best) be the third best receiver at WVU next year with Kevin White’s brother and Shelton Gibson.
Let’s face it though. This guy isn’t going to the NFL at any position.
But he came to college to play quarterback, so that’s what he’s going to do. It’s not shocking. It’s understandable. He definitely helped WVU and Holgorsen last year with the bit he played at receiver.
He’s a long way from the pros. As I understand things, Sills is going West with an open mind. He’s obviously going to be a quarterback there — I’m not sure if he’s the quarterback — and then try to land at a FBS school again, if not as a QB then as a WR.
smeer said:
and could Chuganov be HCDH’s first 4 year program guy?
Up to him and probably whether he can beat Grier or stomach being backup, but given Crest’s arc, it’s up to him or Saunders at this point.
Bobby Heenan said:
I’m not sure if this fully answers your question but it does relate….
Call me a pessimist but I just think it’s really hard to take a guy that can both run and pass well enough to do both and land him at WVU. Those guys are can’t miss prospects (hopefully like Grier) that are just hard to land…so you end up with Rawlins, Crest, and Sills – guys that had some mechanics/accuracy red flags but great athleticism. However in my opinion their athleticism wasn’t greater than that of a B12 starting skill position at RB/WR – just more athletic than your average QB. I still maintain that Crest or Sills are not better at running or catching than Gary Jennings or Dakiel Shorts.
So in summary my vote is to abandon the hybrid guys and go back to the un-athletic Graham Harrell, Brandon Weedon guys. I think we can find guys just as athletic as Skyler (enough to keep you honest if they pull it on a rare read/boot), but with a more accurate arm. Somewhere between Skyler and Crest levels of athleticism but with more accuracy and throwing ability I think is the sweet spot and we should abandon the dream that we can get a highly athletic guy that can also magically have a great throwing acumen/results.
Hope that makes sense.
No, I get it. This whole topic is difficult to articulate. I’m not even sure I did what I wanted. But you make a good point: Dana’s tilted his model and ventured out into an area that’s pretty crowded. He’s looking for a different and frankly better prospect, but so are many other schools. I’ve always though it was going to take dual threat prep QBs some time to be talked into Dana’s offense. I’m not sure there’s been a compelling argument just yet.
Mr Burns said:
There’s nothing to handle. The QB situation you describe is the natural order. It happens almost everywhere every year. It’s a bummer for the player involved. But for WVU (and all the other college programs) it’s a pebble on the road.
Fair. I suppose QBs are so important that you’re willing to roll the dice one some of these types just to make sure you get a couple and hope maybe one of these, I guess, projects hits.
Wayward Eer said:
I think you don’t change your recruiting. The hit/miss ratio is what it is. Outside the top 10 programs everyone is faced with similar issues. I am sure someone has this data but I would bet that the vast majority of the starting Qbs were not highly recruited.
I might argue for change, though. This is perhaps to analytical, but maybe there’s a future: If you’re a school like WVU that’s going to have an inherent recruiting disadvantage until you start building trophy cases, they maybe you need to address the hit/miss ratio and/or find a way to beat — even if that means avoid — the issues top 10 programs face. Also, I happen think elite QB recruits generally pan out for schools. Have some fun searching through the years here … and try to ignore 2013.
tls62pa said:
You paint a very bleak WR picture. There’s a lot of what-ifs in there for our WR corps to fall off the map. In the end, I’m still glad we took Sills and Crest. At the same time, I’d certainly like to have more success with the QB recruiting
Wasn’t my intention. I was crafting “what if” scenarios for the post. Not even at WVU would all of those parts go bad at once. Right?
LoganvilleJeff said:
Hindsight is 20-20. Does Sills stay if Grier goes elsewhere? “Jacked up” shoulder aside, Crest may still be an impact player for WVU. Since we’re talking hypothetically, is Pat White someone who would be overlooked with a different approach to QB recruiting?
Does WVU recruit Sills with Grier on the roster? I think if you answer yes, it’s probably because you thin he’s going to be a receiver. I also don’t think Pat would have been recruited by this staff to play quarterback. Different skills and demands.
BobbyHeenan said:
Pat White fit a mold for a different offensive scheme. I’d be in complete approval to continue to go after these athlete/QB’s if we ran the offensive scheme.
I think Dana became enamored with the idea that he could have a guy that could run his offense with accuracy and efficiency, yet also “bail him out” with athleticism when certain sets or plays break down. Dana himself has talked about that. We were never going to run a ton of zone read or use it as a backbone for our offense, but I think he thought he could squeeze out more athleticism in his recruiting at the QB position and in turn I think he’s compromised arm/accuracy/decision making. With all that said I’m probably one of the bigger Dana supporters.
I’m actually really optimistic about the WR position even without Sills. Gibson, White, Durante, Shorts, Jennings is a solid crew with freshman Smothers and Simms gives you at a good roster. Sure, more depth would be great, but WR is probably the position I’m least concerned about right now.
Is it possible Howard accelerated or exaggerated Dana’s shift? He’s not as gifted throwing the ball, but he still has a job to do, which is move the ball and score points. To do so requires more running from the quarterback, no? And just to clarify the point about the receivers, it looks good on paper, but Sills was a top-five or top-six receiver. Imagine losing Jennings. It’s similar, though Jennings would be a bigger loss, no question.
ffejbboc said:
The team coming from Bishop Sullivan in Virginia Beach for the 7-on-7 is one to watch. Four high level recruits just on that one team alone. Led by 2017 WR Tahj Capehart, 2017 LB Teradja Mitchell and 2018 QB Tyler DeSue.
Noted. I’m going over this evening to have a look.
Mr Burns said:
Are we going to get comments from Tahj Capehart’s father?
Enjoy the weekend!